Hunter Cole, artist. My maternal grandfather was dead by the time I was born. It was quite a spectacle. We had 15 layers of varnish and retouches to take off, and underneath we had a masterpiece. Howwhat was the process of that reattribution officially? CLIFFORD SCHORER: Collection," I think. In the old art, it's a little easier, because you don't have living artists advocating for, you know, those sorts of things. But anyway, no, I mean, you know, it was the good old days. Like, the Ladies' Club would go, and she would bring me on the bus. And I was just, you know, I was a rebel. And at the end of that exerciseI have some wonderful photos of that house, because it wasI sold that house two years agoand it was a long process. CLIFFORD SCHORER: I do not. And we're not really going to move into, you know, Ab Ex or anything, you know, sort ofWorld War II, I think, is kind of where I get a nosebleed, because it starts to get into other people's knowledge base and other people's territory. They're, JUDITH RICHARDS: So at some point, you've expanded your knowledge to include the succeeding decades, CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yeah. A picture should not reappear three times [laughs] on the market. CLIFFORD SCHORER: and that's an area that, as I've expanded my interest in, because Agnew's has such a deep archive on that material, so, you know, one of the first big projects we did with Anthony [Crichton-Stuart] was a phenomenal Pre-Raphaelite exhibition and show, and, you know. And also, there were many dealers where I could suss out instantly that they knew absolutely nothing, and they were talking nonsense, and that drove me mad, so I would literally just turn around on my heel and walk out the booth. Or. So, it's an interesting, you know, circle. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Jim Welu. You know, all of those things, and then you just let go, and it's, you knowit is aI think my psychology is well suited for that in a sense, because I don't have this great lust for the object; I have the lust for the moments that, you know, that sort of [00:36:00]. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yeah. Three, four years. JUDITH RICHARDS: And when did youbut you didn't really start buying, CLIFFORD SCHORER: No, I didn't start doing that until I was inuntil I wasI had. And then we. JUDITH RICHARDS: When you were doing research and you were reading auction catalogues, those are catalogues with the sale prices written in. So a friend of mine that I had known came to me and said that he thought that the library at Agnew's would be available, and, you know, that was interesting to me. CLIFFORD SCHORER: I had made a resume. Where you. CLIFFORD SCHORER: You can't lend to a private gallery. They just simply said, you know, "No mas." So that's a modern phenomenon, where you have this conflict between, you know, a museum, institutional curator and private collectors who may desire that their collection end up on view and the curator may have opposing views. The Spanish state effectively seized one of them, and I got the other one, so I got an export license for the other one. CLIFFORD SCHORER: I mean, I bought aand that's when I started buying paintings. I love computer languages. Art collector Cliff Schorer recently located a missing painting by Dutch master Hendrick Avercamp after finding an image of it online on an $18 throw pillow. JUDITH RICHARDS: And you bought it? So I did start scaling that down, but I did always imagine every time I scaled it down, I would keep this sort of select group. That's fun. And often. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Sure. JUDITH RICHARDS: And you talked about enjoying lending. This was something that you were aware of. CLIFFORD SCHORER: I have a brother, a younger brother. He says, "No, I didn't." JUDITH RICHARDS: So this is a field where you're not cultivating auction catalogues and, CLIFFORD SCHORER: No, I mean, that's the field. JUDITH RICHARDS: Where does that take place? CLIFFORD SCHORER: It's a long, convoluted history, but basically lots of research, lots of phone calls, and everyone knowing that I'm on the hunt for Procaccini. [00:28:03], JUDITH RICHARDS: Was your business background also important to them? CLIFFORD SCHORER: And actually go to the apartments where they were. You know, we saywe say that probably a little tongue in cheek because we know, of course, they would've loved to sell them as archaic objects, even when they weren't. So when I went to see Anthony and said, you know, "I would do this if you are available and you want to do it with me," and he said, "Well, ironically enough, they just told me that I'm on gardening leave." Now he stands to get rich off it. CLIFFORD SCHORER: They painted half a million paintings in the Dutch Netherlands between 1600 and 1650. CLIFFORD SCHORER: They have their own studio. And then I'd come back and make a lot of money for three weeks [laughs], and then I'd travel for three weeks. A preparatory drawing surfaced that scholarship saidand it was not available. So several years later he passed away, and apparently they hadn't yet sold the Procaccini. JUDITH RICHARDS: for profit. You know, when a good picture arrives into that market, it creates a ripple, and it sells well. They didn't talk, and they weren't friendly. I never actually mentioned my age. Olive subsequently married John (Jack) Arbuthnot who wrote some of the Beachcomber columns. You know, that's, CLIFFORD SCHORER: Being a good steward, yeah. So then we took the picture up to the Worcester Art Museum, and we cleaned it, because it had been in dealers' hands. And, you know, you will have a much smaller book of business; there's no doubt about it. JUDITH RICHARDS: Is there an exhibition that you would love to see created that relates to what you've been collecting and discovering and what you want to learn about? [They laugh.]. We had four years of consultancy by Christopher Kingzett and Julian Agnew, who were running the firm before. I had two, and I had to sell both. And I finally saidI said, "Look, how much is it going to cost me, and can I take you to lunch, or, you know, what is it going to take me to get in there?" CLIFFORD SCHORER: I wentI had a pretty bad high school experience. Came back to public school in Massapequa, Long Island, because that was the most convenient homestead we could use, and failed every class. You're going to findthere are going to be many more. I'm always the general on my projects. And, JUDITH RICHARDS: You didn't feel encumbered? CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yeah, in one case they were actually in the same apartment where the family had sold them from years before. But there is a long-term plan that the museum and I are talking about for the things they want to keep. So rather than go back to schoolI wasn't going back to schoolI went and got a programming job at Lifeline Systems, which was a very short, concentrated project. I mean, beyond generous with attributions. And I left and I started the company. CLIFFORD SCHORER: I lovethat's something I did start doing in 2008. CLIFFORD SCHORER: You're putting a value judgment on it that I, you know, I'm uncomfortable making entirely myself. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Of which I can appreciate; I mean, I understand that. CLIFFORD SCHORER: The family, yeah. JUDITH RICHARDS: Okay. JUDITH RICHARDS: Just to ask a couple of basic general questions. We made our own paint. [00:54:00]. You know, et cetera. [Laughs.] Again, knowing that that is a skill set that I will never possess, and that as close as I can ever get is to collect something. A Roman mosaic. You know, fill in the blank; provenance issues, you know. But, yeah, and there was a certain part of ityou know, my world hadI had these warehouses full with things all the time. I mean, it was something I enjoyed doing, and I would do it again, you know? I mean, for the price of a multiple by Damien Hirst, you can buy a Reynolds, you know. Of course, I think the Old Master market is tremendously undervalued, but my rationale for that is not your sort of usual rationale, which is that, basically, the prices are cheap for things that are 400 years old, and why are they so cheap, et cetera. And you know, in those days, there were more sales than there are now. I mean, I wasyou know, I had negative $8,000 to my name. I don't want to say thatI don't want to take anything away from the scholars who do serious scholarship, because what I'm doing is really applying an acuity of eye to a question, and that's a very, very tiny aspect. Last year waswe had a three-day thing in Rome. And commercially, it was a triumph because, of course, the Chinese were not in the market yet. And I saw my name alone in a category, and I was very shocked, because I had never said, "You may do that." JUDITH RICHARDS: Whichwhose painting? You know, your real moneymakers, frankly, are selling one or two major paintings. [00:12:00]. CLIFFORD SCHORER: In Provincetown. [00:24:00], JUDITH RICHARDS: So going back to the export porcelain. I knewI knew that Best Products, 18 hours a day in front of the screen, wasn't going to be my long-term plan. But we won't go too far there. So part of what you were studying wasn't just the work; it was the market. [00:58:00]. CLIFFORD SCHORER: I think, you know, my life is here in the States, and, you know, Ithe fortunate thing is that I haven't quit my day job, because if I relied uponbecause the gallery is an unevena very uneven cash flow. Cliff has been . We should close the museum tomorrow and give everybody that walks by on the sidewalk $400 and just call it a day, because that's what the budget is. ], I mean, I remember I got it back to Boston, and it was hangingit's hanging in the photos. JUDITH RICHARDS: Would you say that's one of the most gratifying occasions, and that that kind of experience is a key element for driving you to that kind of scholarship and scholarly discoveries, driving you as a collector? So, all of my companies are project companies; they only make money if my projects are executed and are successful. Do we think this is this?" CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yeah. It's a temple. Winslow Homer. JUDITH RICHARDS: Is there any indication onit's a loan. [They laugh. I mean, little things, but just lots of articles, publications, and now, you know, again, contributing to the San Francisco exhibition's works. You know, the Scheldt silts up in Antwerp and ruin comes upon the city. And a very helpful dealer in Spain finally made the last connection to find the actual apartment. When I was 13, we restored a Model T Ford from thefrom the, you know, bolts up. All orders are custom made and most ship worldwide within 24 hours. JUDITH RICHARDS: When you say serious, you mean in terms of business? JUDITH RICHARDS: This is Judith Olch Richards interviewing Cliff Schorer on June 7, 2018, at the Archives of American Art New York City offices. CLIFFORD SCHORER: And obviously really didn'tonly went back to drawings and prints when, you know, when there was something. Yeah, short answer is, we like a schedule of art fairs to just basically move us around geographically. When Harper's sent him to Virginia to cover the Civil War, he found his forte in closely observing camp life, attending to "the ordinary foot soldier," Cross notes, "not the general . [00:10:02], JUDITH RICHARDS: When you started out in this field, did you have a general sense of where you wanted to go? [00:20:00], So I'm looking at it, I'm looking at it, and I'm reading the label, and the label says it's King Seuthes III of 740 BC or something. And, CLIFFORD SCHORER: Probably about 10 years ago, where I just said, you know, maybe. Winslow Homer Casting, Number Two, 1894. I felt authenticity when I saw it. But theyou know, certainly the paintingsthe early paintingsI know those roomsyou walk in, you can feel the humidity. [00:38:00]. Yeah, I haven't doneI didn'tI hadn't done that at that point. In 2019, Clifford Schorer, an entrepreneur and art dealer from Boston, stopped by the shop to purchase a last-minute gift. And actually, it was very similar to my grandfather, which was not his son but his son-in-law. And you know, I'myou know, if you ask me to, I'll do the carpentry, the electrical, and the plumbing. They want to hear what's the number and, you know, "When can you pay me?" JUDITH RICHARDS: In all those years when you were collecting in the field of Chinese porcelain, did you think it wasperhaps you should learn a bit of Chinese since you're so good at computer languages? [00:34:00]. And by the time I was born, he was deceased and the family was bankrupt. The neighborhoods that I knew. And, you know, these were major paintings, so it was a prettyit was a bigger risk. [00:40:10]. CLIFFORD SCHORER: That was based on opportunism, because some of the greatestsix of the greatest Pre-Raphaelite paintings ever made were available to us at that moment. No, no, no. The reality was, it was cheap. Born in 1836, Winslow Homer is regarded by many as one of the greatest American painters of the 19th century. And then it would've been'87 would've been the class that I was coming in. CLIFFORD SCHORER: I consider to be respectable parameters. The best result we found for your search is Clifford J Schorer age 70s in Greenwich, CT in the Pemberwick neighborhood. JUDITH RICHARDS: for the field. Joan Cusack, actress. JUDITH RICHARDS: So while thesewe're talking about these early collecting experiences. And I learned to say the most rudimentary things. CLIFFORD SCHORER: One hopes. CLIFFORD SCHORER: So, I mean, I would say that all of those things would be exciting and fun to do, but unfortunately, I don't have the ability to do them all. And all, you know, Hungarian and Germanit was mostlyhis world was primarily German, Austro-Hungarian, and all the occupied territories from the First and Second World War. Worcester is getting ambitious, as I said, and they're buying great things. [Laughs.] I remember these place names. And old man Lewis and I had a few passing conversations in the hallway of his building. JUDITH RICHARDS: I think we'll conclude. JUDITH RICHARDS: She lives in Italy though? If there's anything that somebodyI mean, two weeks from now in San Francisco, two big Pre-Raphaelite paintings will be in their Pre-Raphaelite show [Truth and Beauty: The Pre-Raphaelites and the Old Masters, Legion of Honor Museum, San Francisco]. This is a Renaissance object. [00:32:01]. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yeah. JUDITH RICHARDS: Into the prospective buyer's living room? But, yes, I mean, I'm serving as the general contractor. JUDITH RICHARDS: In other words, being generous with attributions? JUDITH RICHARDS: Have you ever tried to, or wanted to, learn how to do any of the kinds of ceramic work or painting or whatever yourself to see what's entailed? You know, there's a lack of understanding [of what] the agencyyou know, our agencywould be to them, our agency would be to the seller. CLIFFORD SCHORER: I wouldn'tI would probably never acquire another gallery, because that wouldI mean, I think I would probably be more of a financial investor in other art businesses, potentially service businesses. I have the Coronation Halberd of the Archduke Albrecht, and it's in the museum at Worcester [laughs], and, no. CLIFFORD SCHORER: See, I don't want to seem like. [Laughs.] So, you know, I think that's why I say it's a hobby you can take to your tomb. So those were always fun and, again, because a Crespi comes top of mind, there were three Crespis that came up that I was able to buy and reattribute to Crespi, and now they're accepted. Yeah, I mean, that'sthe ones who have open doors will always have my heart. Clifford Schorer Adjunct Professor; The Eugene Lang Entrepreneurship Center at Columbia Business School. CLIFFORD SCHORER: This was '85, '86-ish, I think. JUDITH RICHARDS: So you only spent one year there? CLIFFORD SCHORER: You know, that's very frustrating. CLIFFORD SCHORER: No, no. And they said, "You're out of your mind." Date. The party was also attended by Winslow Homer who was asked by Lady Blake to sketch the children. CLIFFORD SCHORER: But you know, Chesterfield is a certain type of geo-politic. I've been coming to every Skinner auction for 10 yearsoh, more than that, 19 years. This is my third bite at the apple, and I wasn't going to lose it this time. How long did you continue collecting in that field? And it was an area I didn't know, and you know. They had good people; they had good people. [Laughs.] My father was absent because he was enjoined from being present. So, JUDITH RICHARDS: When you say "we," you mean you and. CLIFFORD SCHORER: I mean, there I was, really making capital available to gallerists whom I trusted and to buy pictures that I liked, so it was a veryI was not their first call. JUDITH RICHARDS: So coming back to your, CLIFFORD SCHORER: family. I mean, I would say, JUDITH RICHARDS: You were stillyou were living in the house that you bought. It's a big Spanish altarpiece. So I wrote that program in a month. So, you know, it was quite ait was quite a big disparity in age. But, yeah, I mean. You know, it was a million square feet of office furniture and miscellaneous things. And on the other side of the equation, you know, the auction house is marketing to a buyer who's going to pay the fee, and it is going to impact your net sales price, whether you understand that or not, you know. And so I painted one Madonna and Child with pickles and fruit [they laugh], which is the Carlo Crivelli typical. So, I mean, I rememberI remember buying that because I thought it would be a good decoration. And he said, "Well, ironically enough, Sotheby's"and I knewI could feel this sort ofwithout even asking the question, I knew that Noortman's days since the death of Robert Noortman were numbered. And in some cases, they still collect in those fields, or more likely, given that it's now 40 years later, many of them are either passed away or quite old now. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Well, I was living in Chesterfield, and I was commuting to Ashland. They would lay out their stamps and coins. So I think that in order to have anything above 50 to under 500 survive and thrive to replace those dedicated 80 families of collectors who used to run around and buy those things, we need to create a sense of style that employs those things in a way that makes sense today, and that's what we try to do. CLIFFORD SCHORER: So I'm thinking 16 years. He just built, I think, the first public museum in Antwerp. JUDITH RICHARDS: Do you see yourself spending more and more time in London? And I mean, he didn't speakI don't think there were too many words spoken about much. The discovery hinges on the unlikely meeting of two men: Clifford Schorer, an entrepreneur and art dealer who specializes in recovering the lost works of Old Masters, and Brainerd Phillipson, a. So you know, they have a castI mean, there are only three complete specimens, so you basically getyou buy a cast of one if you want to show one. JUDITH RICHARDS: So this was the mid-'80s? So, you know, one major painting today selling for $25 million, even though the gallery may only make a commission on it, is still more than the gallery sold in adjusted dollars in 1900. CLIFFORD SCHORER: So when I bought my examplethe triceratopsthere was an editorial in the New York Times about my piece, saying that some rich person's going to hide it away in their castle. I mean, I found a conflict the other night at the collections committee advisory meeting at Worcester. JUDITH RICHARDS: Yes. CLIFFORD SCHORER: So, it, you knowit's been very, JUDITH RICHARDS: They recognize your interest, the. JUDITH RICHARDS: Now, I have some questions that sort of look to the future. JUDITH RICHARDS: Were therewas it a big decision for you to become involved on that level with. Chief of the Investigations Division, Inspector General's Department, Inspector General's Office (Washington, DC) B ack, George Irving. JUDITH RICHARDS: Had you had a chance to go to Europe by that time? No, no. I went from, you know, the Gustave Moreau museum to theor well, pre-d'Orsay, right? He's making these decisions, which you approve of, JUDITH RICHARDS: and then you're going out, CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yeah, yeah. CLIFFORD SCHORER: So it was very, very pleasing to me to have, you know, the Antwerp Museumyou know, the KMSKAbuy, with their own money, what I consider to be a certain van Dyck sketch, you know, from a very importantyou know, one of his pictures in the Prado, one of his preparatory sketches for one of the pictures in the Prado. He's doing all of these really focal things. Got straight Fs in every class for the next year. You know, you can only do so much of it; otherwise, you have a saccharine high. So I love to do a little bit of everything. I went to a boarding school in New Hampshire called Kimball Union Academy, that was not in and of itself a bad high school experience. JUDITH RICHARDS: Oh, so you owned it for many. I'm just finding those morsels left on the trail and trying to follow them, and then that'sto me, yes, that's exciting. The marketplace has sort of moved away from providing them a platform for that, because there weren't enough of them. Unique Clifford Schorer Winslow Homer Posters designed and sold by artists. It was not in the market; it was in an institution. We've done Paris Tableau, which is obviously now over. We know that T Dowell, Tylden B Dowell, and five other persons also lived at this address, perhaps within a different time frame. My grandfather's collectionmy great-grandfather's collectionwas in the millions of stamps. JUDITH RICHARDS: You're serving as your own contractor? CLIFFORD SCHORER: I have one piece of armor. CLIFFORD SCHORER: So, I can just give a recent example. JUDITH RICHARDS: When you had this 300-and-some-piece collection, were you displaying it in your apartment? But I think it was just muscle memory at that point, so. You know, everything. I said, "I'll leave the car and I'll walk." arugula, potato and green bean salad . Is it an official. Other people who you could talk to about becomingabout this passion? It's obviously spelled in a different alphabet. JUDITH RICHARDS: You talked about the label just saying, "Private Collector." CLIFFORD SCHORER: In that field, I have them now, and ironically, I didn't have them then. [00:14:00], So the little paintings on my Chinese export porcelain, the engravings on the Columbus series of stamps, theyou know, all of those things, all of those, you know, progressing all the way up to, you know, big, narrative, allegorical paintings of the Baroque: those are all this kind of marriage of conception and highly skilled craft. Then it was scientifically designed fakes made to deceive. I think that's a big story for Plovdiv. JUDITH RICHARDS: You just didn't want to think about selling? Your own contractor a rebel: yeah, I 'm uncomfortable making entirely myself bring... Price of a multiple by Damien Hirst, you mean clifford schorer winslow homer and the Eugene Lang Entrepreneurship Center at business. Out of your mind. like a schedule of art fairs to just basically move around. The future would be a good decoration so I painted one Madonna and Child with pickles and fruit they..., fill in the market yet Moreau museum to theor well, I think that 19. 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